50 Comments

1. Anonymous  •  Sep 22, 2004 @11:05 am

   It’s Tentopet

   So you’re saying that I actually HELPED Tokykopop by doing screentones instead of greyscale? Have they mentioned anything to you about their preferences or their opinions on screentones v. greyscale? Really, I’m not sure if your argument against mixing greyscale with screentones has me convinced. When it all ends up converted for print, aren’t the former greyscales just tinier tones, and thus match the varying types of tones you already have? Sure, it looks sloppy before it’s converted, but I don’t see a problem once it’s been prepared for print, unless it’s a pain for the publishing company. As for your argument against making it look like a color manga converted to B&W, I can see your point there. If it were meant to look better in color, it should BE in color! And if you do something black and white, you’d better use it to your advantage! Now to figure out how to do that…you’ll see my RSOM entry, and it’ll give you a headache, haha. The plot’s totally rushed and I have a tone in almost every spot, as if white space were an awkward silence. I think I’ll have a hard time figuring out how to use black and white to my advantage, because I use different tones to make sense of my outlines. When I take a look at my outlines before I tone them, I KNOW that people won’t be able to distinguish one thing from another, because I have so many details. So I use different tones to distinguish them. You once told me on my manga for the MA contest that there was a lack of detail, and I think I took that so much to heart that I’m afraid of blank space (don’t get me wrong; you really helped me!). So I’m trying to look at mangas I like right now to see what the happy medium is.

2. Rivkah  •  Sep 22, 2004 @12:10 pm

   Re: It’s Tentopet

   *heehee* It just takes time to find that ‘happy medium.’ :) When I first started toning I used WAY too many tones. ^_^; Once you get more comfortable and aquanited with them though, you’ll be able to appreciate the negative space in a picture (or ‘white space’). It’s all about finding that perfect balance that you’ll be happy with.

   As for printing. . . hmmm. . .

   There are essentially two kinds of printing you can use for printing B/W. Three actually, but digital printing (or ‘print on demand’) isn’t generally used for high-volume publishing.

   Halftones were first created in order to reproduce photographs and pictures on paper. Presses at the time were incapable of printing anything other than black and white. Black for the ink. White from the paper. Only one ink, and therefore less expensive. In order to create the illusion of greys, they needed to somehow break photographs down so that lighter areas were represented by smaller dots, and darker areas represented by larger dots. To achieve this, light was shown through the photographs and passed through a screen, breaking the image up into tiny dots, the size at which they were capable of printing at the time.

   Now, the human eye can see right around 265 shades of grey. Halftoning is obviously a more convenient method than layering 265 different kinds of gray ink, which is what they would have had to do to achieve an exact replica. However, with the invention of the modern press, printers are now able to use PRESSURE to create different shades of a colour, using only one ink. To create color, you would use Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black (Hence ‘CMYK’).

   Technically speaking, you could still use modern presses to print b/w stuff, right?

   Wrong.

   Full-colour presses only print at 300 dpi. When you send something through that’s black and white, it’s the best you’re gonna get. However, when you print in halftones, you can achieve up to 2400 dpi, which is about as small as the human eye can possibly see. That’s EIGHT times greater than a full-color press.

   Technically speaking, you COULD convert a traditional 300 dpi greyscale image into a 1200 dpi b/w bitmap. However, the dots would have to be so small and so close together, that a problem is created with even the slightest bit of resizing. Traditional screentones have a lot more leeway when it comes to resizing because they’re further spaced apart, but only as long as you KEEP the screentones at a b/w bitmap instead of converting them to greyscale. You can see an example of what happens in the RSOM3 entry, “Ozymandiaus” where there are tones, but then it if you look closer, you’ll see grey areas between the tones. This muddies the artwork and makes it appear unprofessional. I can also tell he created his tones in Photoshop because of the consistently square-shaped pattern of his moire.

   Which takes me back to the idea of using tones to add texture to a piece, and also of blending the two methods. When you convert a greyscale to a halftone, it’s a uniform conversion, meaning all the dots are the same size. If you mix tones with greyscale, that means you have to first convert the tone to a greyscale image in order to apply it to your linework. Unfortunately, when you reconvert all of your greyscale art back to a 2400 b/w image, this creates ‘grey space’ between the dots of your screentones, meaning not only does the halftone dot print, but so do a bunch of other tiny dots between it. I noticed that the artist for ‘Moonlight Magnolia’ in RSOM3 did this–though not very heavily–and her real tones look muddied while her greyscale toning is crisp and even.

   If you’re going to stick with greyscale toning, keep with it. Blending the two can mean the difference of looking like an amateur and looking professional, which can mean the world when the market starts to becomes more competitive. Keep your art crisp and easy to read. And most of all, make sure it’s consistent. If you find something you like, go all out and make it stunning.

   Good lord, I’m long winded. . . gomen. ^_^;

3. Anonymous  •  Sep 22, 2004 @2:29 pm

   Re: It’s Tentopet

   It’s okay, this is answering a lot of my questions. Although I didn’t really understand all that you said, I get it overall. Too bad you can’t mix the two methods…I can’t wait until the new Comicworks comes out in English!

   Now, you’re against Photoshop-generated tones, but what about the method I explained, where I creat a black-and-white pattern and save it as a brush pattern? Does it work? Do I have to worry about how small I make the tones? Because it seemed to go okay. I don’t use Comicworks tones for the basic stuff because their stuff is so coarse that it really roughens up drawings that I’m trying to make more delicate-looking. Or am I just doing it wrong? Because the dots are seriously way too big that way.

   I don’t really worry about resizing, because I figure I make the page at the size it needs to be, at 600 dpi, and that’s okay–it’s all digital and all. Am I wrong there?

   I was wondering what was up with the “Ozymandius” one. He did like a greyscale thing under a real tone, right? But with the “Moonlit Magnolia” one, I can’t find what you’re talking about.

4. Rivkah  •  Sep 22, 2004 @3:03 pm

   Re: It’s Tentopet

   Photoshop toning: I wouldn’t even bother with the black and white pattern tones, then. Use a solid grey instead; it’s easier to work with something that’s completely greyscale, than those photoshop-generated tones.

   Comicworks tones: You should be able to change the size of the dots. :) Choose the pattern brush, select ‘setup’ in the pattern tool setup box, and change the line number. Try not to go any higher than 60-80, though, otherwise it’s better to just do greyscale. Technically, you can go up to 130 when using halftones, but not all printers are capable of more. ‘Density’ will make the dots larger and therefore a darker tone. ‘Angle’ will rotate how it’s applied, as though you were turning the paper. You can change this to get cool effects when layering tones.

   DPI: 600 is good. 1200 is better. ^_~ But 600 deffinately works.

   Ozymandius: I took a really good look at his work, because that’s what I thought at first, too. I think he may have with a few, but the rest . . . he isn’t very precise with trimming away his tones, first of all, and the edge of the grey follows too closely with the edge of the tone dots to have been deliberate. Plus the halftone dots fade. In fact, those ‘tones’ were definitely created in Photoshop. Screentone dots are perfectly round. Photoshop generated tones tend to be somewhat diamond in shape.

   Moonlit Magnolia: Second to last page, upper right corner. :) The ‘bubble’ looking tone. Look real close and you’ll see how the dots are kinda faded into grey.

   lol. What can I say? I notice all the stupid stuff. ^_^; Then again, I think that kind of mindset is what’s helped me to improve over the past year. :) I’m a real perfectionist at heart. ~_~

5. Anonymous  •  Sep 22, 2004 @8:57 pm

   Re: It’s Tentopet

   Bah! I feel really bad, but I still have questions!!! Sorry for burdening you…

   I still don’t get what’s wrong with a Photoshop tone if you shape it well and all. Comicworks tones are the same way if you zoom in–they have a particular amount of pixels painted in, and the pattern repeats. So you can feasibly duplicate it in Photoshop, and I’ve done so. There’s no reason Photoshop can’t do the same thing. Is it the problem with the tones being too small? It seems that if people can convert greyscale to very fine dots in print, then you can do as fine or less fine dots in Photoshop and it’ll still be okay for print. Maybe not on a typical computer printer, but for a publishing company (realize I’m saying this so you can point out where I’m wrong).

   YOU CAN DO FINER DOTS THAN 60 ON COMICWORKS??!!!! HOW THE CRAP DID THAT HAPPEN? I know how to adjust the pattern brush settings, but my line number goes from 20 to 60 and that’s it. What the crap? I bought it later than you got yours and I got it directly from Deleter!

6. queeniechan  •  Sep 22, 2004 @11:20 pm

   Bother Rivkah all you like about toning!! She doesn’t mind! (haha…)

   Actually, Rivkah, I’ll really like to discuss what you say about greyscale toning in details with you. The reason is: I do most of my work thus far on the web, so I’ve always used greyscale shading as it looks alot better when you shrink a 600 dpi 21cm x 29.7cm image down into a 500 pixels width image (kinda a unique problem). Most actual tones, when shrunk that much, gets a moire pattern… geez. I got the reverse problem when I draw stuff on the web (checkout Rumble Fall at Wirepop for what I mean…).

   But now that I’m moving onto actual PRINTING, things have to change. I’m not sure what this means, but thanks to Rivkah’s infinite wisdom about the printing process it seems less daunting (ie. I have someone to go to for help). How do you print your artwork to see what it would look like in print, Rivkah?

   However, I’m with Tentopet when you say that greyscale and tones don’t mix. I believe there IS a way of making it look good – I think Aimo’s manga (World of our Own) at Wirepop has a good mix (Chapter 2, that is)… well, I’m not entirely sure whether some is greyscale, but it looks it. But I agree with Rivkah that photoshop textures just plain look too bland though, especially when combined with computerised line-work. It gives it an… all-too-clean sort of look. As a result, I think your art (Rivkah’s) is much better off with actual tones than grey scale because of the clean-ness of the linework. Similarly, I believe complex linework can get away with photoshop greyscales.

   I actually believe “The Little Mermaid” in RSOM3 suffered the most in this – largely because of the toning and what it turned out looking like. Is it photoshop generated? The dots just seemed… messy. What’s worse about it is that it muddies the complex linework – you can’t see the complexity of the lines because of all the dots. It’s a darn shame, because the delicacy of the lines is what makes the artwork stand out. Alas…

   What do people think?

   And Tentopet: My version of Comic works has 2 “sections” of dot tones. The 20-60L one and the 55-70L one. I use mostly the second one – I don’t know why your version doesn’t have it (unless you haven’t looked…). And I haven’t used it much, so….

7. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @3:25 am

   Re: It’s Tentopet

   LOLOLOLOL! Just type in the number for your tone dots! LOL

8. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @3:54 am

   Oh! I agree about ‘The ‘New’ Little Mermaid’ one! The artist’s artwork was SO detailed that the tones just ruined the effect. In fact, I don’t think that they should have used tones at all (greyscale OR screentone). The complexity of their inking was enough to give the effect of shading already, and the use of tone was both overdone and unecessary.

   I think a lot of my bias comes from having worked a lot with actual print. (and this goes to both of you gals) What you see on your computer monitor, and what goes to print are two VASTLY different creatures! When I was doing ‘Steady Beat’ for the web, I had real problems with moire, because I was making it at 600 dpi and actual print size, and therefore had to shrink it down to odd sizes in order for it to fit on the screen. THAT problem was solved by first decreasing it by 50% and then by 85% increments afterwards.

   What a lot of webcomic artists don’t realize is that it’s a heck of a lot easier to see mistakes in print than on screen. One of the things I personally like about screentones, is the way it erases. In order to keep greyscale tones looking nice when printed, you need to make sure your edges are sharp, clean, and crisp. With real tones, there’s more leeway for softer or uneven edges; I THINK it’s because the dots are further apart, the eye just ‘fills in the gaps’ between dots, whereas with solid tones, you can see every jagged pixel. ^_^; Again, that’s just what I think from having printed them out, though I’m not sure that’s the actuality. IMHO, really fine toning or greyscale toning looks better with sharper edges and shading (kinda like anime, but in B/W), while regular screentones look nice lightly erased and blended.

   I can’t tell with Aimo’s webcomic what she uses. I’d have to see it in print to really tell. Judging from the shape of her edges where she ‘erases’ the tone though, I’d say those are really fine tones. I know that her CYOMC entry was done in comicworks, too.

   To answer your other question, Queenie, if I need to see what something looks like printed out, I find a laser printer that prints at least 1200 dpi and print it out that way; it’s usually close enough. I’ve tweaked my step-dad’s enough to get just the right settings. I can’t remember which settings, but some printers use different patterns when printing, so you have to play around a bit to get the right ones.

   Not sure if all those thoughts were coherent. . . it’s like. . . 5 in the morning. -_-;

9. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @4:36 am

   Re: It’s Tentopet

   Hmmm. . . are you creating your tones in greyscale or black and white? I’m assuming you’re using the ‘color halftone’ tool to create your tones. If so, then it’s a filter, and you have to work in at least greyscale to use filters.

   Ahhh. . . it’s hard to explain without showing you.

   Okay, here is a halftone created in photoshop at 600 dpi, line number 8 with a high density (meaning bigger dots and spaced close together). This at 100% on my screen. Looks pretty nice and clean, now doesn’t it?

   

   Now here it is zoomed in. Notice how the edges are a little fuzzy? That’s because I’m having to work in greyscale to accomodate the halftone filter. Alright, it still LOOKS okay.

   

   So lets convert it to a black and white bitmap which you HAVE to do in order to go to print. I used 50% threshold because it’s the best choice for preserving lineart. Diffusion dither, which is a very popular form of converting halftones, really only works for photographs because otherwise it will ‘feather’ your lineart and make everything look fuzzy. The other selections will just totally ruin your art. lol.

   

   If you take a closer look, do you notice how all the dots aren’t uniform? This is a problem Photoshop has yet to fix. While it looked REALLY good as greyscale, when you convert it to b/w, things just run amuck.

   

   And here it is as it would look printed: It WORKS, but there is a ‘lattice work’ moire to it, and it almost looks as some of the dots connect. To see the real difference though, lets go on to a real screentone.

   

    

   I created a tone in comicworks at 60 lpi and 40% density, so it’ll come out about the same as the tone above. It LOOKS more jagged than the original photoshop file, now doesn’t it?

   

   But that’s because it’s already black and white. Now compare this to the photoshop halftone. These dots are even, and uniform not only in appearance, but also in spacing.

   

   And here’s the best I could get it to shrink down to on a monitor. However, if you print the two out, I can say without a doubt, this last one will print more evenly.

   

   And comparison:

   

10. queeniechan  •  Sep 23, 2004 @4:37 am

    I suppose when MY stuff goes to print, I’ll have to learn it the HARD way. *shudders* Everyone has to get a balance in how they tone – and I have the sinking feeling that my work in print will look god-awful regardless of how I tone. When you print greyscale on your laser printer, do you have to convert it to half-tone first?

    Anyway, Rivkah, what dimensions are you drawing Steady Beat to? I’m askin’ because you do everything digitally and it must be different to pen and ink in SOME way in terms of size. I’ll appreciate it if you can enlighten me. :)

11. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @4:42 am

    I wonder how long it’ll take everybody to get through this thread. . . ^_^;

12. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @4:54 am

    Actually, I think your toning works. It’s very minimalist, so personally, I don’t mind. Plus you do a lot of shading with your inking instead of relying on tones; something which I envy. I’d love to be more confident shading with my pen. If you really want to use tones more, I think you’d do better keeping your tones more solid, instead of using gradient tones, but that’s just IMHO. Balance is a difficult think to find.

    And I draw everything exactly to size at 1200 dpi. My monitor is kinda tiny (17″) but if I need to see details, I can just zoom in. And ask your editor for the exact page specs, because they’re roughly 5″x7″ with an 1/8th inch bleed, but I can’t remember exactly. I have a template saved, with the exact dimensions plus guidelines. Left and right pages also have different dimensions on where you put the bleed because of the binding, so that’s another issue to keep in mind.

    Ah! ;_; So much information at once! Sometimes it’s BETTER to learn things the hard way. lol. I learned most of what I know through trial and error, and a little bit from working with other professionals.

13. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @4:55 am

    Hey, and if you haven’t already, read this part:

    http://www.livejournal.com/users/lilrivkah/14246.html?thread=7590#t7590

    lol

14. queeniechan  •  Sep 23, 2004 @5:08 am

    Actually, my “minimalist toning” is going to change. Here’s part of my old submission – http://www.queeniechan.com/dream.jpg – see the now abundance of tone? (compared to my other stuff) It’s a horror story so I need to establish the moody “atmosphere” part, sigh. My personal horror story is probably what this will look like in print. Well, at least I’m willing to learn, and yes, learning things the HARD way is GOOD. Forces you to experiment. :)

    However, I’ve been running into trouble with ComicWorks. I’ve found that CW keeps crashing on my computer – AND, the dots produced in it at 600 dpi isn’t round. It can turn out like small arrows – only 1200 dpi produces round dots. I don’t know whether it’s MY version of CW or something… *shudders* At least I’ll never halftone anything in photoshop.

15. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @5:22 am

    THAT’S odd! You might want to check the Comicworks website for update or patches and see if that’ll fix it. Hmm. . . You might want to try uninstalling and reinstalling it. Is your ‘cell form’ set to ‘circle’ under the pattern brush settings?

    The only problem I’ve really run into with Comicworks is that if I’ve been away for a little bit and go back, and then hit ‘undo’, it freezes on me for a couple of minutes. I usually just sit and wait it out, or go off to grab some tea and cookies. :)

    Hmm. . . and I like the toning in this piece, mainly the toning on the people. Perhaps lay off of shading the background too heavily, though? That way the focus stays on the people instead of what’s around them. ^_~ I know my editor complained about that kind of thing to me, too! lol! He said, “You’re backgrounds are too heavy, Rebecca” and told me to lighten up. *^_^* Actually, my editor has had a LOT to say about my work, though I didn’t necessarily agree about the ‘more cleavage’ remark . . . I THINK he was joking. -_-;

16. queeniechan  •  Sep 23, 2004 @6:36 am

    … I just realised I’m hijacking your thread with all my frivolous questions… sorry, Rivkah. I promise this will be my last post. >_<

    I installed ComicWorks again, and it’s better, but my 60L 40% tone still doesn’t quite look like yours. The dots just aren’t as ROUND (extra pixel), though they are round for other tones. Oh well… at least from a distance it LOOKS round enough. There isn’t any patch on the Comicworks website for this either.

    Thanks for the input about the piece I posted up – I think we can get an interesting discussion out of this. I believe your editor is right when he asks you to lighten up on the backgrounds of your work though. Your stle seems very ‘shoujo’ romantic comedy, and shoujo has always been light on background and strong on characters. I think it’s a good suggestion because then you can concentrate on the characters and the panelling (and any internal dialogue you’ll be having). I love the backgrounds you posted up, but I believe they should mostly be used for scene setting – and then cut to characters, etc etc. Shoujo makes strong use of white space – especially in moments when the characters are framed having revelations or capturing an intimate moment in time, etc. Or even during conversations to make it easier to distinguish between different panels. Looking at Chapter 1 of Steady Beat on Wirepop, I actually think that more white space could do Steady Beat good. I dunno about the cleavage though. Cross-gender appeal, so why not. XD

    However, for horror it’s a completely different ballgame – and this is something I’ve given considerable thought to. I wish I could lighten the backgrounds up, but part of horror is how the characters INTERACT with the background, especially when the setting is something like a Haunted Victorian-Style School. Rounding dark corners, weird camera angles and building the suspense for BOO!! moments is important. Minimising the background could be detrimental, because then the characters are too prominent, and not vulnerable enough. And it’s hard to be scary when everything around the characters are bright and shiny. XD

    What do you think? Just a question… who knows what my editor will say? Hope they have plenty to say – there’s always room to explore and improve. :D

17. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @7:36 am

    LOL I love these kinds of discussions! >_< It isn't very often I get to talk to somebody who knows what the hell I'm talking about, especially when it comes to the in depth stuff. :p

    And that’s a good point on the backgrounds for suspense stories! I never thought of that! O_O I think one thing that’s different about Steady Beat from a lot of Shoujo manga, are the camera angles. I have a lot of ‘establishing’ shots with the characters and their surroundings, but I’m trying to blend it with more white space, now. :) And I love extreme angles! One thing that really irritates me about most shoujo manga is that most of the angles are either straight on or from the side. Swinging the camera around really adds a sense to the story and helps establish mood. It’s like directing a movie! But I’ll definitely try to not let the backgrounds detract too much from what’s being said, and CERTAINLY lay of the tones in the future! lol. I’ve cut it back to no more than one background or establishing shot per page, and I keep them pretty simple, leaving out ‘knick nacks’ and stuff that detracts, unless it’s at the very opening of a chapter or scene. The outside of houses and buildings are usually what I spend the most time on because they establish setting, but the rest is just a bunch of perspective lines.

    Hmm. . . that’d be cool if we could exchange pencils and ideas. I’d really like to see your new work, and I’d love to see what you have to say about mine. My editor’s been really helpful, but I think he’s afraid to nitpick at me sometimes. lol.

    Sometimes I feel that I’ve come a very long way since the initial Steady Beat, too. I keep searching for more and more ways to improve my technique and practice, and it’s getting easier to recognize my mistakes and correct them, but a keep on wanting more. To KEEP on improving. To KEEP on getting better. I want to not only match the artists in Korea and Japan and China, but to pass them someday.

    Oho! I love competition! And I like to think that at only 22, we’re both gettin’ an early start in the game. ^_~ Just think of where you’ll be at 44! 66! 88! I’ve only been drawing manga style for a little over a year now, and I hope that I NEVER hit a barrier in my development. There’s always something to improve upon!

18. Anonymous  •  Sep 23, 2004 @10:09 am

    Dang, I have a TON to say now! I’ve been missing out here! Where to begin…I guess I’ll just reply in chronological order!

    Bwaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! That’s what I get for not reading the manual!!!!!!! I was like, “I can’t take any more of this poor translation of a book. I’ll figure it out on my own.” Wow. That helps soooooo much. It’s like figuring out the secret things on really hard video games. Thanks!!!

    About the toning on Photoshop thing, I feel that you really misunderstand what I was explaining about my technique. I NEVER use the halftone filter; I just learned about it two days ago, and I felt the same way you did: the tones were too uneven and moire-y. I make these very precise tones by zooming in a million times on a file that’s only 5×5 pixels or whatever, and I use the pencil tool and create different tones on my own. I convert them into brush patterns, and they’re very even and work just like a Comicworks tone would. So I think I was alright there, although it would’ve been nice to have known there was an easier way…

    But hey! That means that people who want to use Photoshop can still make legitimate screentones!

    Oh, and Iron Mouse, I know about the tones you’re talking about. But they’re not tones you can draw in, and that’s a pain to me. And it only goes up to 70, which I still don’t think is fine enough for some things. But I’m okay now that I know I can do whatever dots I want! For my RSOM entry, I did 100-line dots by doing all these 50 line screentones and shrinking them on Comicworks to half the size, and then taking them to Photoshop and saving them as brush patterns. 50 lines was the only one that didn’t shrink unevenly.

    Iron Mouse: I think greyscale toning actually works for you really well. Your sample picture is detailed enough that it doesn’t look funny to me, like it does in a lot of online greyscale comics I’ve seen. It still looks like manga.

    As for “The ‘New’ Little Mermaid”, it’s true that the toning was messy and complicated, but I disagree that it should’ve been done away with altogether. She has so many details that I think her lineart would share the same problems with mine: you wouldn’t be able to distinguish what is part of what. Some simple toning helps so you can make sense of all the details. So I think she would be fine with a little toning, as long as it’s not moire-y and stuff.

    Rivkah: Your whole speech on how you can see mistakes on print much more easily is soooooo true. I realized that after a few experiments. At first, I wasn’t putting in much detail and used thicker lines because I didn’t think people could see everything unless I did, but when I realized you could, I had to change my whole process. And I ALSO noticed that with toning, you don’t have to be as precise. That’s one reason why I’d like to stick with it, not to mention the fact that I like toning effects and what not.

    Alrighty, well I think I’m done for now. Thanks for this discussion! How healthy!

19. Anonymous  •  Sep 23, 2004 @10:10 am

    Ooops. The part in my second paragraph where I’m going all crazy–I’m talking about Comicworks, if that was unclear (which seems to be the case).

20. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @10:45 am

    About the toning on Photoshop thing, I feel that you really misunderstand what I was explaining about my technique. I NEVER use the halftone filter; I just learned about it two days ago, and I felt the same way you did: the tones were too uneven and moire-y. I make these very precise tones by zooming in a million times on a file that’s only 5×5 pixels or whatever, and I use the pencil tool and create different tones on my own. I convert them into brush patterns, and they’re very even and work just like a Comicworks tone would. So I think I was alright there, although it would’ve been nice to have known there was an easier way…

    Ooh! How clever! I can see how that would work as long as you don’t try resizing except by 50% increments (but I think I’ve already said that trying to resize is a pain for ANY kind of tones, lol)

21. mistressnashya  •  Sep 23, 2004 @8:16 pm

    For someone like me, who used photoshop to do my toning in Whisper. I didn’t even know what a ‘screentone’ was back then. I’ve learned so much just from reading your thread. I’m not big on tones period and I only used them for skin because my characters were black or had tans. I want to work more with stark black and white line art. Ever seen XXXholic, like that with little or no tones. There’s a term for that… Chiaroscuro… so something. :P Anyway, would you recommend Comic Works? How easy is that program to pick up? I can’t see myself doing real life screen tones, I’d screw up WAY too much. I know the program runs at about 100 dollars and I’m willing to make the investment. I just want to know if it’s worth it. You use comic works to tone Steady Beat right? (Again, congrats on that) I’m still having a hard time picking up the mechanics of black and white. I’m a color person all the way and b/w seems so difficult. I think the general idea is though, put the screentone down at the actual size it’s to be printed at… I keep hearing people say not to resize tones… Just pick a tone with smaller dots right? Lol, okay I’m done now. Thanks in for all the info.

22. Rivkah  •  Sep 23, 2004 @11:16 pm

    Personally, I really like Comicworks. It took me a little bit to get used to because the layout is completely different from Photoshop, some of the translations are a little funny (makes it amusing to use the program sometimes, lol), and everything is in centimeters instead of inches. Actually, it looks almost exactly like Open Canvas, so if you’ve used that program, it’ll be easier to navigate. Other than those things, though, I love it. Screentones are painted on instead of cut, which makes it easier to apply typically hard to tone spots like tapered corners and small, round spaces.

    If you want to try the trial version first, you can get it at: http://www.deleter.com/cw_english/info-download.htm I don’t believe you can save on the trial version and there’s a limited use of tones and other tools, but it should give you a good idea of whether or not it’s worth the investment. ^_~

    Feel free to ask any questions you might have! :) I’ve been using ComicWorks since February/March, and I think I have a pretty firm grasp on the program.

23. Anonymous  •  Sep 24, 2004 @2:28 am

    I TOTALLY recommend Comicworks. I can see how it could be better, but it’s the best thing out there right now in English. It was way simple to learn–I mean, it’s nothing compared to learning Photoshop (and I just go Adobe Illustrator and that’s harder than teaching a slug French). And the trial version is really misleading because you can only do typical dot tones and no effect tones whatsoever. Just be careful when you order it. I ordered it directly from Deleter, and they screwed up my order, saying it wasn’t even recorded, but somehow the money still came out of my account. The only one I could communicate with was the English webserver, who had to be the middleman and I needed Comicworks FAST. Then, when I finally got it, the CD wasn’t actually locked onto the holder thing so it was swimming all around in the case and was totally scratched. I somehow figured out how to make a copy of the CD and THEN it worked. So it’s really cheap from them, but you’re safer buying it from a more local place that you can complain to, honestly. Rivkah and I know this dude who owns this website called “Akadot Retail”, and if they aren’t reliable, we know how to hunt him down! Hahaha.

24. queeniechan  •  Sep 24, 2004 @7:17 pm

    Rivkah – I’m always happy to trade pages, and I’m looking forward to Steady Beat. :) I also feel that your panelling isn’t as 80s or 90s shoujo as most other work on TokyoPop shelves – it seems to be a hybrid style. But then I haven’t seen your new Steady Beat so I’m just second guessing here. (PS. If you haven’t seen older style Shoujo, I suggest you go for it. There are some things it does SO MUCH BETTER than modern shoujo.)

    And as for extreme camera angles – go for it! One thing that I REALLY find missing from 90s shoujo is a sense of CINEMATIC SWEEP – and that’s why I don’t like it as much. When I see older Shoujo series, there IS that sense; by that I mean complex “camera work”. This DOES include extreme camera angles, such as swinging the camera 360 degrees around a character who is having an emotional catharsis. How do modern Shoujo do this? Probably show the character in a still frame, with shadows on face, white background. Surely there are better ways to show someone being swept along by their emotions or situations outside their control. (Checkout IKEDA Riyoko’s work – I don’t have any samples but I remember browsing through her work and she is one of the best at showing emotional catharsis and characters being overwhelmed by their memories).

    What I just said ain’t really appropriate for a light romantic comedy, but it’s just something you can consider when you do more work after Steady Beat. I think your style is very well suited for shoujo – much more so than mine (and you LIKE it more than me – I find I like non-modern adventure setting stories). These days I find myself expanding sideways; trying out new genres and new styles of art to suit that genre. I like doing it as I find it liberating to break out of an already *established style* (usually my own) and finding NEW ways of sequential expression. (Ahh! I feel so creative when I experiment!! LOL)

    And I know what you mean when you say you want to keep on improving. My life will suck so much if what I do now is the best I can do. It will take many, many years to perfect what we do – Tezuka’s Buddha, which I consider better than Phoenix because it’s complete, was done when Tezuka was about 60. Needless to say, we’re in for the long haul. XD The drive to self-improvement makes me feel I WON’T ever hit a barrier because there is still a higher goal to aim for.

    And Anon: Thanks for your comments. I also agree with you about the Little Mermaid’s toning – I think here is something that would have benefited from greyscale toning; contrary to the whole of Rivkah’s thread :p. It’s true that her line work is complex and deserving of display, HOWEVER drawing ONLY in black and white is also DIFFERENT to drawing with toning (I know because I’ve done both – checkout http://www.queeniechan.com/kots/kots-pg1.html). When you draw ONLY in b&w, you need a strong balance of blacks VS white, AND proficiency in shading shadowed areas with your pen. The reason is: b&w draws attention to the SHAPE and FORM of an object much more than the depth. Seeing The Little Mermaid didn’t have a strong balance of black VS white, eliminating the toning altogether may not make it a better or even clearer picture.

25. svetlania  •  Sep 26, 2004 @12:32 pm

    Yay, you have a journal again! Now I can bug you about Comicworks, heh (I’m finally trying to learn it XD) Welcome back!

26. Rivkah  •  Sep 26, 2004 @2:13 pm

    *^-^* This one’s purely professional, too. I needed a place to write all the essays I’ve been wanting to do, especially on really technical stuff, like this. *^-^*

27. svetlania  •  Sep 26, 2004 @6:54 pm

    And big thanks for that! It’s helping a lot and is always an interesting read.
    A question: did you ever have trouble printing any of the Comicworks screentones? I tried printing se-613 and se-1094-2 but they came out as plaid patterns :\ I suspect it may be a limitation of my inkjet, though? Would a higher grade printer be able to handle it?

28. Rivkah  •  Sep 26, 2004 @7:21 pm

    I’ve had some issues with printing some of the lighter patterns that utilize even tones . . . se-1094-2, that’s one of the cloud patterns right? This is my theory on why some tones have problems: It uses layers of even tones that have been erased away to create effects. Most of the other tones are pretty random patterns. . . but moire is created because of a repeated pattern, such as in the clouds and some of the other nature backgrounds. Printing on a laser printer won’t solve the problem, unfortunately.

    One thing you can do, since this is already a greyish tone is first save just the tone at 100% as a separate bitmap file and open it up in photoshop. Convert the tone to greyscale and then decrease by 50% or 25%, depending on how large of an area you need to cover, and then again by 85%. Now, covert the tone back to a bitmap, but use the ‘diffusion dither’ function instead of 50%. Import the tone back into comicworks and apply, resizing as necessary within the program. It’s a bit tedious, but it should help a little bit. Using ‘diffusion dither’ to convert it back to a bitmap makes the tones a little less repetitious and uneven, but since this is a very light tone, the diminish in print isn’t noticeable.

    I haven’t actually tried this, but playing around with these settings should hopefully get you better results. The one thing I really hate about Comicworks is that I can’t figure out how to import scanned in tones into the tone menu. Life would be so much easier then!

29. amegoddess  •  Sep 27, 2004 @4:17 am

    I see no one has pointed you to the ‘Resample image’ check box in the ‘Image Size’ dialog box in Photoshop. :)

    Click that off and instead of shrinking your file size, pixelating the image, and causing Moire it’ll shuffle the pixels around. So if you shrink the size, it’ll up the resolution and if you change the resolution, it’ll up the size. It’s lossless. Fun for all.

    You too can work at the wrong size on accident and then resize without causing morie and you get a higher resolution in the process!! Wheee! You may have to add Canvas to the top or sides to get it perfect but it won’t moire the tones this way or grey anything out. =D

    About grey toning…

    Just to let you know, I’ve spent close to 9 years in printed comics and have had the benefits of working closely with Brenner Printing one of the most experienced printers of comics in N. America. Right now I’m working on book for Tokyopop. I’ve also used both traditional tone, photoshop tone and grey tones before. =D

    I believe the rule of thumb for Photoshop tone is 45 LPI(lines per inch) or smaller. Although I’ve used 55 lpi and it’s been okay but going higher then that and you run the possibility of moire.

    When I work in grey tones I ALWAYS, always let the printers convert them to half tones, our comic printer does it for free (Brenner Printing again). Sure it’s all one LPI but that’s generally how you get those nice areas of solid greys. Never had problems with it.

    I expect that we have quite a ways to go with comics. I like to use both grey toning and screen toning but the problem you’re seeing may simply come down to that, there is just not enough comic culture here for people to know or learn how to do either correctly. Hell my learning was filled with problems.

    But hey, it’s there why not use it? The only way the get better with either gray toning, screen toning, or the dreaded combo is to fool around with it. Really why not? I mean people seem to have just as much trouble using traditional screen tone. I use to know a guy who would copy tone on to chartpak sheets using Kinko’s copiers… it seemed like a good idea at the time, 5 years ago.

    I like messing with toning and sometimes just using pure screen tone makes it look like I’m trying to copy the manga/anime style. It seems a shame to rule out grey toning or the combo simply because it’s tough to do ‘right.’

    -Diana

30. Rivkah  •  Sep 27, 2004 @6:19 am

    [i]I see no one has pointed you to the ‘Resample image’ check box in the ‘Image Size’ dialog box in Photoshop. :)

    Click that off and instead of shrinking your file size, pixelating the image, and causing Moire it’ll shuffle the pixels around. So if you shrink the size, it’ll up the resolution and if you change the resolution, it’ll up the size. It’s lossless. Fun for all.[/i]

    That’s usually what I do, already. *^_^* You’re talking about changing the print size, upping the resolution, and keeping the actual pixel size the same, right? My results with doing this have been inconsistent, mainly with tones that run a high LPI. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. The BEST results that I’ve had is just keeping the file size the same and not resizing it until I get it into Quark or InDesign and then tweaking with the PRINT settings instead of the file settings. (argh. . . I hate Quark, but my old boss refused to use anything else, and we were using 4.1! Oh! The horror! *cry*)

    I agree though. People need to play around more; it’s the only way the industry will advance. That’s how I learned. By making LOTS of mistakes! *lol* I think by learning some of the concepts of toning, people will feel daring to try new things out.

    Where I’d really like to see progress in comics is in the print field. In comparison to Japan, I feel that our printing methods are far behind, though we’re catching up. I’d give part of a leg to know who Viz uses for their printing, though I’ve a feeling it’s overseas simply because the parent company is Japanese and they have easier access to it. A lot of artists are also going to Canada for b/w printing.

    Brenner printing is in San Antonio, isn’t it? I remember requesting a quote from them several years back for our novels. :) I want to visit! ;_; I didn’t know they did a lot of the printing for TP. . . hmmm. . . is this a recent development, or have they used them for a while now? I’ve noticed that the quality of the TP printing has gotten so much better than it was a year ago. But there are lots of factors that could be involved in that.

    I’ve never actually worked for a printer, though I’ve run the print department for several companies, including my own (I co-run a small fiction novel publishing company). IMHO, printing stuff is as cool as winning the lottery. Ah! I want to learn more. . . ;_;

31. amegoddess  •  Sep 27, 2004 @9:10 am

    My results with doing this have been inconsistent, mainly with tones that run a high LPI.

    That’s why the rule of thumb with Photoshop tones and screen tones in general is to stay under 55-45 LPI. Although for the most part I do what you do and stay at actual printing size. Not counting the few times I’ve had trouble or have had to adjust art for printing in different formats. Comics to manga size is a bit of a size shift. :D

    I’ve had really odd problems in printing from digital files with tones. Sometimes I think that the moire problem is not in photoshop’s tones at all but some incompatibility with tone patterns and Pagemaker, Indesign, or Quark. Oddly Brenner Printing printed one chapter of a story completely without moire even though the pages were re-sized in Pagemaker(this is generally considered a no no) and the toning was done at crazy high LPIs. But then the next chapter which was done in a similar fashion without the resizing has moire out the ying yang. It gets really confusing at that level of printer voodoo. It really could be anything. @_@

    Um, sorry if my post was misleading, as far as I know TP does not use Brenner as a printer. I only mention TP as what I’m working on right now. Sorry about that.

    Brenner is really cool when they let you into the back to look around at stuff. Sadly everyone is unusually working so you only get to look at things merrily printing or stapling before they give your comic boxes and send you on your way. =D Although I do hear that they do tours.

    In your original post it sounded like you were trying to warn people from ever trying or using some of the techniques like Photoshop tones, grey toning or combos of grey tones with screen tones. Your wording was what I was responding to the most since it seemed a bit like ‘never try anything that’s not screen tone.’ I’m guessing that’s not really what you were trying to say?

    It’s tough to do some of these things right or even attractively the first time people experiment. Most notably when it deals with the shiny computer and computer programs. I guess maybe more my point was that the outcomes of using these techniques might not be so hot at first but it’s the experimentation itself that helps bring about new ways of doing things that push the industry forward. Or course the industry is not a homogenized entity so what one person might learn may not spread. Maybe I should just say that there’s a lot of bad stuff that happens because people are learning how to do things and this is not always bad even if it doesn’t look pretty. =D

    There are people trying interesting things with grey toning in the comic market. Andi Watson likes to experiment with it a lot. He’s done some really odd dry brushing effects using photoshop greys (‘Geisha’ is the example that comes to mind).

    You don’t even want to know the old horror stories with screen tone back when you couldn’t really get them from Japan. There was a reason screen tone wasn’t used in American comics until recently. Mostly because it was expensive, limited, and it stuck to your page like glue. The pain.

    -Diana

32. Rivkah  •  Sep 27, 2004 @9:51 am

    There’s some really awesome work being done with washes, too. I wish I could name exactly who, but browsing through some of the indy comic books in my local comic book shop has turned up some really appealing artwork, and since washes are a natural texture, they’re a lot easier to reproduce in print than tones. I’d LOVE to see some manga artists experiment with this. I’d try it, but it’s difficult to produce the way the washes interact with paper in a digital environment. Photoshop and CG Illustrator are both too ‘clean’ and Painter runs incredibly slow on my computer. I’ll try experimenting with it more by hand when I have more time to work on other things. :)

    Sorry about misreading your post earlier. ^_^ I think I really did kinda come of as sounding completely anti-greyscale. I’m not; I just think it’s misused a lot, but I’m sure people will find their own techniques. *lol*

    Did you know that tones were originally an American invention? A lot of old comics back in the 1920′s and 30′s utilized tones until we started being able to produce flat colors inexpensively. Then they completely disappeared from the market. Now they’ve resurfaced with the sudden influx of Asian comic techniques which had taken our original idea for tones and enhanced upon it. If you want a real eye opener, you’ll see a lot of American influence in Asian manga in the likes of Nell Brinkley, Ethyl Hayes, Dorothy Urfer, even Rose O’Neil (remember Quepies? lol). I’m also reminded a lot of French art neauvou artist, Alphonse Mucha in some of the more elaborate manga artists. They all had a focus on line, using a light, whispy touch that’s reminscent of a lot of shoujo manga. It’s pretty cool seeing how styles and techniques have fed between the two countries over the years.

33. amegoddess  •  Sep 27, 2004 @12:45 pm

    Sorry about misreading your post earlier. ^_^ I think I really did kinda come of as sounding completely anti-greyscale. I’m not; I just think it’s misused a lot, but I’m sure people will find their own techniques. *lol*

    I was figuring, after I read your reply, that that might be the case.

    It’s too bad Painter and your computer don’t like each other it’s pretty cool program to mess with. Is it just that comic file sizes are too big for it? Because I know a way around that. =D

    Hmm, I wasn’t sure about where tones originated. That’s pretty cool. We’ve used them over here in Super hero comics going way back but all of the old super hero comic ‘how to’ books suggest not using them much… since the final comic was to be colored. (My comment above about American comics using tones needs to be ‘wasn’t used very much’ I’m typing too fast and I made it an absolute when it was just suppose to be a rare thing.) =/

    I use to buy this brand of screen tone made by Chartpak and another made by Letraset. You could find them downtown at ‘Miller’s Blue Print’ (it’s a fine art store in Austin) before I bought the lot of them at clearance. They’re quite a relic because Deleter doesn’t make any tones quite like them. However they really sucked for old fashion hand tone because they were way too adhesive. I use to wonder how anyone could screen tone without destroying their lines until I used Japanese tone. That was an eye opener.

    Now a days I use all digital tone from scanned screen tone (thanks to friends in Japan), Photoshop tone, and sometimes greytones.. all for different projects. I wish Deleter would sell tones in cd packs I hate using their program only to steal tone. Makes me feel bad that I just don’t feel comfortable making comics by inking them into the computer. More practice would help, I’m betting.

    -Diana

34. Rivkah  •  Sep 27, 2004 @1:01 pm

    I love Miller Blue Print! I live right up the road from the one near Kramer and Metric. >_< They have the coolest supplies, and they're nice about giving me a student discount even though I'm not a student anymore. . . ^^;

    And you’ll have to tell me how to get around that problem in Painter. I actually have Painter Classic which is the cheap version I got with my Wacom so it’s brushes and settings are limited. *so sad*

    If Deleter sold cd packs of tones. . . ah, that’d be the best thing in the world. >< I buy all of my other tones from Akadot Retail because they carry ALL of the tones you could possibly imagine. Then I scan 'em in and save em for later. Two bucks for a sheet of tone I can use indefinitely isn't bad at all.

35. jameshanrahan  •  Sep 27, 2004 @1:03 pm

    diana and rivkah

    since you guys live in austin and both work for tokyopop, why don’t you meet up and talk comics. Like meet at dragon’s lair or austin books or something? dragon’s lair has tables…

36. amegoddess  •  Sep 27, 2004 @2:09 pm

    No problem. It’s an interesting cheat, it’s also counter intuitive to what people tell you to do when you work in Photoshop. Although the Japanese book I got it from did suggest it for Photoshop.

    Because Painter doesn’t like large files the easiest way to use it with large files is to actually drop your resolution… First duplicate the file and then shrink the duplicated file’s resolution down to about 200 or 300 dpi (you want to lose data here). Then you save it at the new resolution under a different name(you want two files here, one large and one small.) Then you open the smaller file in Painter. At this point you’ll need to use the Tracing paper option because Painter Classic doesn’t have layers. Look under help for Tracing paper since it’s actually stupidly complex to get. You have to clone it or something… ugh I don’t remember.

    Tracing paper will allow you to make a transparent light image of your lines. Then you tone the page under the tracing paper. Because the dimensions of the page isn’t different all you have to do when you’re done toning the small file is save it and take it back into Photoshop. Once back in Photoshop you up the resolution of the small file back to it’s original size. Then you copy and past the Painter tones under the crisp ink lines of the large original page.

    You’ll probably need to get really close to the final product to make sure the tones don’t go out of the lines in areas but the lower file size should help Painter move quickly. Also the smaller size will help texture be more obvious and let you use bigger brushes.

    Ugh, I hope I’ve explained this right. You’ll have to tell me if it works out with your computer or if you run into any problems. I’ve only use this for a couple of things but it seemed to help with programs that had speed problems.

    -Diana (Just poke me if you have trouble)

37. svetlania  •  Sep 27, 2004 @3:50 pm

    Huh! I tried pattern dither on another tone and it does seem to really diminish the problem (haven’t tried printing yet, though). Thanks a bunch for the info!
    And yeah, brilliant as Comicworks is, it’s still got a ways to go. XD Now, if I could somehow smoosh CW and PS together… *dreams*

38. amegoddess  •  Sep 30, 2004 @2:56 am

    Re: diana and rivkah

    Snicker, hey James… I see you’ve found your way here. =D

    I wouldn’t mind that but I think we’ll both probably be way too busy for meet ups. Hell, I can’t even make it down to San Antonio to visit you guys even though I need to pick up comics. =(

    Ugh, back to the salt mines.

    -Diana

39. Rivkah  •  Oct 1, 2004 @7:43 pm

    Re: diana and rivkah

    LOL. If we can find the time, that’d actually be really cool. I don’t know about you, but I seriously need to get out and talk to real live human beings, and what better way to do that than under the pretense of artistic business? ^_~

    Every been to Spider House, Little City, or Kerby Lane?

40. ex_vitaly507  •  Oct 16, 2004 @10:53 am

    wow, I totally used greyscales for my entry. Damn moire,

41. Rivkah  •  Oct 16, 2004 @11:00 am

    *lol* I can’t wait to see it when it comes out in December! \^o^/

42. Rivkah  •  Oct 16, 2004 @11:00 am

    I love your LJ icon, btw. :)

43. Rivkah  •  Oct 16, 2004 @11:03 am

    PS. (damn for not being able to edit comments) I’ve seen the way you greyscale. . . you rock my world! One of the few times I’ve seen greyscale tones that really WORK. >_< It fits your lineart perfectly.

44. ex_vitaly507  •  Oct 16, 2004 @6:02 pm

    awww thanks ( I <3 mean naruto faces) haha, really? you don't think it'll mess up? I was real worried about that and tried to convert to bitmap zipatone, buttttt it was so ugly so i just sent greysacale >_<

45. Rivkah  •  Oct 16, 2004 @7:18 pm

    *lol* That’s good you did! I promise they’ll thank you for leaving it as-is. >:)

46. ex_vitaly507  •  Oct 16, 2004 @10:28 pm

    totally, that sheet was NASTY! …er i noticed you have a project going on with TP? you were a rising star? which one?

47. Rivkah  •  Oct 16, 2004 @10:58 pm

    I’ve never actually submitted to the Rising Stars contest. . . I approached them at a portfolio review in Los Angeles and submitted my story to them later, when I got back to Texas. As far as I know, there’s one other artist they’ve hired who hasn’t participated in RSOM. If they like the story and they like the art, they WILL pick it up, no matter what you’ve done before or where you’ve placed in the contest.

48. ex_vitaly507  •  Oct 17, 2004 @9:13 am

    somehow i think i only placed because of my style. My story isn’t that thrilling (yet, anyway)

49. surfacesw  •  Mar 15, 2005 @7:59 am

    Digital Toning

    Greetings Lil’ one!
    I have much enjoyed your thread on this subject, and have learned a lot from your posted experience… so THANK YOU.

    (By the way, it took me about 30 minutes to get thru the entire thread (I noted that you wondered that at one point!))

    Anyway, given your experience, I want to pick your brain for a second, if you don’t mind.

    First, let me tell you why:
    I’ve recently gotten the job of ‘grayscaling’ a project for a small studio (that may or may not go to print). It’s a Manga, of course. My background is focused more on traditional comics, as far as artowrk, etc. goes. Manga is new to me.
    (OH – and I’ve read what you think on mixing tone with grayscaling in photoshop, and I think there is a happy medium in there somewhere…)

    ANYWAY, my question is this: IF (hypothetical) YOU (personally) were to tone/grayscale in Photoshop, what are some steps you would take to ensure good quality? (I realize this is probably a ‘no direct answer available’ sort of question, where some things are concerned… but I was more thinking towards resolution, converting lpi, preparing for the printer, etc. etc. (LOL if that makes sense??!?!)

    Thanks!

50. jadelin  •  Jan 26, 2007 @10:47 pm

    Re: It’s Tentopet

    This is a really helpful lj post. :) I’ve been looking for English tutorials about this whole entire technical details behind manga printing. I made a few mistakes on my first physical screentone, but it’s a bit too late. :) I’m too afraid to peel it off and re-try.

    Thanks for taking the time to write this entry.

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